In 1939, Poland fell. Ukraine will also fight, but it will not fall

Jacek Judik: Poland 1939 and Ukraine 2022?

of course not. If we use any comparisons, it will be until 2014, that is, until the beginning of the Russian aggression against Ukraine, and not until 1939. Moreover, in Poland, the war began and ended, and the war in Ukraine (why we write “ in Ukraine” and not “in Ukraine ”, We explain at the end of the interview) It broke out in 2014 and continues to this day.

Ukrainians are still at war. We recently raised money for gifts for 4,000 people as part of the “Christmas Without A Father” campaign. ChildrenThey are orphans of soldiers who died at the front. Last year, there were fewer of them, and now there are four thousand. By the number of orphans, we can see the war continues and the victims are increasing – fathers, brothers, sons.

149 you. Russian soldiers on the border of Ukraine. Will they come or not on such a massive scale?

Perhaps what I will say is a manifestation of wishful thinking: I don’t want them to come – I don’t think they will. I have this conviction because I see that the whole world sees who is the aggressor. In 2014, it was not so clear and Russian propaganda could easily muddle the message in the global media. There is no doubt at the moment: Russia is fighting for war.

I think they will not come easily either because Ukrainian society and army are fundamentally different from those of 2014. The strength and attitude of Ukrainians towards Russia is different from what it was eight years ago.

More about the war in Ukraine On the home page Gazeta.pl.

Is it really a different nation?

In the social sense – yes, it is different. The Russians have been shooting at Ukrainians for years. They shoot and kill. Ukrainians understand that because of Putin. The Ukrainians know that no one from abroad will help them, and if they allow Russian troops into Ukraine, they will also agree to burn their homes. That their families be killed. We know what the Russians were doing in the Donbass – they destroyed everything, tortured and killed people. The Russian army respects no rules at all – the soldiers want to make a living, and they have the Kremlin’s approval to do so.

If you look at Russian propaganda, Russia wants to confront the alleged genocide that is happening in Ukraine. And – this is the second part of this propaganda – the West wants to destroy Russia.

Russia’s message is consistent in the sense that it is supposed to justify the beginning of the aggression. Russia lives in a post-truth system – a system of information generation that has nothing to do with reality.

What is genocide? It was the Russians who killed the people in the occupied territories. What will to threaten Russia? Russia is the largest country in the world regionally and at the same time one of the least densely populated. The Russians have a lot of room to develop. Nobody in their right mind believed that Russia could be conquered.

If the next invasion becomes a reality, will there be people in the Ukrainian community in Poland and in the West who will return and go to the front?

In the event of an invasion, we will deal with two steps at a time. I know people who have already left Poland and returned to Ukraine to join the Land Defense Battalions. Some Ukrainians also return from other European countries to be ready to fend for themselves. If there is an invasion, there will be more.

Will many refugees go to Poland and Europe in general?

A Russian invasion, if it comes to one, could do that, and that would be natural. if we accept factThat Russia – with 150,000 soldiers – is unable to occupy the whole of Ukraine, the people will first flee to those parts of the country that were not occupied by the Russians. More than one and a half million people fled from the Donbass and Crimea and now live mainly in Ukraine – only a few of them are left to other countries. An exodus of refugees to Poland is unlikely, but we must prepare for it anyway. If there was a Russian invasion, there would definitely be a group of people who would see it as a reason to enter the West.

We are talking about the war between Russia and Ukraine, and it seems that the Ukrainians and the Russians are two sister countries.

Russians and Ukrainians are two different countries that share a lot in common with traditions and culture. But they are different – it is a fact of thousands of years of history. The community resulted primarily from linguistic affinity and a common orthodox religion.

For more than 300 years, the Russian consciousness was built on an attempt to fit into the traditions of Kievan Rus’, but in a way that left no room for others, including actual heirs, of the Ukrainians. The construction of modern Ukrainian identity dates back to the middle of the 18th century – then there are already indications that this people is a different nation, despite the same religion and language similar to Russian. The most important for the construction of Ukrainian identity was the Cossack tradition – the tradition of freedom. It was important for Ukrainians to respect their rights. Meanwhile, the story of the right to freedom did not exist at all in the Russian tradition.

So, can Russians today as a society applaud their aggression towards Ukraine or be indifferent?

If you look at how Russian society works, it’s sad to say yes. Let’s look at what the Russians did to themselves. How did they react to Putin’s deal with Alexei Navalny and the opposition in general? The Russians themselves agreed that the Führer, like Putin, should be in power as president. They adopted the imperial ideology propagated by the Führer. Without the Russians’ approval of Putin’s power, imperial rhetoric, the Führer would not be able to cause more wars – also with Ukraine.

Russian approval of Russian imperialism – it seems to me that this is our biggest fear.

because?

We can expect our bot won’t be there one day.

A is approximately 70 years old.

Yes, but the great power that thinks of the Russians will remain without Putin in power. And for a very long time. The attempt at democratization in Russia was unsuccessful and will not succeed for a long time.

If you are referring to Putin as the Führer, you are referring to Hitler and World War II.

Yeah.

At the same time, she does not want to compare the possible Russian aggression against Ukraine with 1939.

In 1939, Poland fell. Ukraine will also fight, but it will not fall. The international environment is different. However, the world has already realized that Russia’s aggressive policy is a problem that threatens the entire region.

Putin says some Russian troops are withdrawing. Western interviews contradict this. Do not trust the statements of the Kremlin?

Perhaps Putin taught everyone that it is stupid to believe in just one word about Russia. There is absolutely no truth in Russian discourse. In Russia, they say what is important for the current political need, and this has nothing to do with truth and facts. There used to be the Soviet truth – what the Soviet party said was true and the rest was a lie. Now the definition of truth in Russia is similar: what the Kremlin and Putin are saying is correct. Putin usurps the right to say who is a fascist and who is a good person.

The hotbeds of evil for the Kremlin are the West, NATO and the European Union. Meanwhile, opinion polls among Ukrainians now show record support – 62.68 percent. Ukraine’s accession to NATO and the European Union. Ukraine is heading west, but Russian tanks stop this ambition?

This seems like a moment of total sobriety. In 1994, Ukraine signed the Budapest Memorandum …

In which Russia guaranteed Ukraine’s security in exchange for Kiev’s abandonment of its nuclear weapons.

Because we still believe the words of the Kremlin. We naively believed that people wished each other well and were at least trying to keep their promise. It turns out that in the West the base The contract is the law of the contracting parties – worse or better – but it still applies. And for Russia? The given word is invalid. In 2014, when it was clear that Ukraine did not want to be with RussiaBut with the West, it was the Russians who attacked the Donbass and set the Crimea on fire. Ukrainians no longer believe any of the Kremlin’s statements. Ukrainians can see who is credible: NATO and the European Union.

What is happening now is a lesson. We cannot afford to waste it. This is a lesson primarily for Europe. If peace and stability are truly important to everyone in Europe, this is guaranteed by the fastest possible expansion of NATO and the European Union to Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia. Movements that provide an opportunity to keep Belarus as an independent state must also be supported to the fullest. If we leave these countries in the Russian region, even if we avoid war now, the Kremlin will start this war in two or three years.

Are you convinced that behind the words of the leaders of Germany or the United States there is a determination to move, even costly, especially for Berlin, which wants to launch the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline?

There is no such selection yet. We must enforce this design.

Lenin used to say: We will hang the capitalists with ropes, which we will buy from them with their own money. We are dealing with Russia, which is shooting at us, and we the West have handed it over to it. as? For example, by running a business like Nord Stream I and II. German rule by which change takes place Commerce, go bankrupt. The West must clearly tell Russia: If wars begin, we will end trade with you.

We must not forget that Russia does not really have an alternative to the liberal world. In the West, Russians put their stolen money and send their children to the best universities. The Russians must be threatened: if you want to build an empire at the expense of Ukraine and other countries, your presence in our world is over. The end, that is, the confiscation of the billions stolen by Putin and his people. The end of their children’s education in European or American universities. The Russian elite cannot be waging war on the West, and at the same time investing the future of its money and children in this West.

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“In Ukraine” or “in” Ukraine?

I prefer “in Ukraine”, although if someone says “in Ukraine”, this is not wrong, because in the sphere of Polish culture and in the Polish language it is the correct formulation. However, the best “in Ukraine”.

Are you and the Ukrainian community more closely related to “in Ukraine”?

Yes – we prefer “in Ukraine”. We are aware that the old form of the word “in Ukraine” sounds as if we were saying “in Kashubia” or “in Warmia”, yet the reality is different: Ukraine is an independent country, not a region. If we prefer to say “in Poland” or “in Germany”, then also “in Ukraine”.